Best place to buy a medit i500 from. Great support and an even better community. - 6/16/2020
Yen Tran
Jonathan and Nick have been a great tremendous help. They went out of their ways to help me upgrade my Medit i500 even though I didn’t purchase my Medit i500 scanner from them. They are the largest Medit scanner distributor and they have the custome...read moreJonathan and Nick have been a great tremendous help. They went out of their ways to help me upgrade my Medit i500 even though I didn’t purchase my Medit i500 scanner from them. They are the largest Medit scanner distributor and they have the customers’ interest at heart. They are super responsive to phone calls, emails, and Facebook messages. I highly recommend their servicesread less - 9/01/2021
Ted Fang
Purchased a Trios 5 and the Sprint Ray Printer/Ecosystem from Cad-Ray at the end of 2022. Frank Deluca, my CAD-Ray rep, was instrumental in helping me see the value in purchasing both technologies to expand on my digital dental office. He came ac...read morePurchased a Trios 5 and the Sprint Ray Printer/Ecosystem from Cad-Ray at the end of 2022. Frank Deluca, my CAD-Ray rep, was instrumental in helping me see the value in purchasing both technologies to expand on my digital dental office. He came across as being very sincere and professional throughout the entire process. After the purchase, he even made himself available to go above and beyond what a normal dental rep would do. For instance, when I had my Sprint Ray Ecosystem installed, he set aside time on a Friday afternoon to walk me through the steps to print my first 3D study models. I would say he is one of the best dental reps that I have come across. Definitely received a 5 star experience and service from Frank. He is definitely and asset to CAD-Ray.read less - 1/25/2023
Jeffrey Martins
Service at CAD-Ray has been really great. About 6 months ago I purchased a Medit i700 scanner from them and have been really happy with it. Fortunately, I haven’t run into many problems, but if I need help they are so easy and friendly to work with. ...read moreService at CAD-Ray has been really great. About 6 months ago I purchased a Medit i700 scanner from them and have been really happy with it. Fortunately, I haven’t run into many problems, but if I need help they are so easy and friendly to work with. When my scanner did stop working, they quickly got me set up with a new one. If I have a computer question, they offer to log in and look at the computer with you. If you’re in the market for an intraoral scanner or any of their other products, I encourage you to talk with them to meet your goals. Thanks CAD-Ray!read less - 11/04/2022
Jose Morales
Service is extremely quick and on point. Highly recommended to join the Cad Ray facebook group! - 6/01/2022
Frank Gibbons
I just bought my first Intra-oral scanner (Medit I-700). I have demoed scanners from various companies in the past but have been less then thrilled with the applications, scanner ability, ease of use and overall user experience. I feel that now the...read moreI just bought my first Intra-oral scanner (Medit I-700). I have demoed scanners from various companies in the past but have been less then thrilled with the applications, scanner ability, ease of use and overall user experience. I feel that now the technology has caught up to where it should be and after reviewing many scanners on the market have decided to go with Medit. The Medit i-700 gives me all the functionality I could want, has an affordable price and works for all the procedures I need it for (scanning for ortho, dentures, partials, crowns, bridges, implants ect.). I love that they continually update their software and most importantly that those upgrades are free to the end users. Another huge plus is that when I have a question I get actually get someone on the phone!! For all these reasons I finally jumped in. I would recommend anyone else to do so as well!read less - 5/06/2021
Bob D
Just got my Medit i700 from CAD-Ray and experienced what everyone raves about, the level of customer service by CAD-Ray. As you know you can buy this scanner from a lot of places but they won't offer you help and support. They called my cell and conn...read moreJust got my Medit i700 from CAD-Ray and experienced what everyone raves about, the level of customer service by CAD-Ray. As you know you can buy this scanner from a lot of places but they won't offer you help and support. They called my cell and connected to my laptop and configured everything at 7 PM.. Great great experience.read less - 12/08/2021
Ma. Teresa Santana
Best support and customer service ever! My scanner is long past warranty and they still answer all my questions. When it's time to upgrade I'll be buying from them again. A friend bought same scanner from another vendor and got zero support. I had to...read moreBest support and customer service ever! My scanner is long past warranty and they still answer all my questions. When it's time to upgrade I'll be buying from them again. A friend bought same scanner from another vendor and got zero support. I had to help them. Told her next time buy from Cad Rayread less - 5/10/2024
Thomas Lim
5 stars for a great product and great service. After much research I knew I was set on the Medit 500. I considered some of my local equipment reps, as well as cad-ray. Cad-ray won out due to their efficiency, speed of service, and knowledge. The...read more5 stars for a great product and great service. After much research I knew I was set on the Medit 500. I considered some of my local equipment reps, as well as cad-ray. Cad-ray won out due to their efficiency, speed of service, and knowledge. Their online presence makes it easy to get help via messaging, social media, or phone.
The scanner itself works great, but make sure to contact them to get the minimum specs required for a laptop -- it will make a difference in how the scanner performs.
To make the scanner mobile, I purchased this cart from Staples: https://www.staples.com/Oklahoma-Sound-Premium-Audio-Visual-Presentation-Cart-40-1-2-H-x-18-W-x-30-D-Black-Ivory-Wood/product_932437.
Lastly, I purchased "3M Dual Lock Fastener" to keep the power module attached to the wand from falling off the cart. I carry the scanner between two offices, so I wanted something sturdy, but removable. (see in photos). The hockey puck shaped holder (comes with the scanner) works great for holding the wand itself.read less - 10/10/2019
Absolutely love dealing with this company. Purchased two intraoral scanners from them over the last 3 years and the support has been beyond exceptional. Frank patiently walked me through all the basics with many a phone call (to his personal cell p...read moreAbsolutely love dealing with this company. Purchased two intraoral scanners from them over the last 3 years and the support has been beyond exceptional. Frank patiently walked me through all the basics with many a phone call (to his personal cell phone, no less) on the first go round. Whenever we've even had a hint of technical difficulty there is ALWAYS a knowledgeable voice on the other end of the line. After 3 years of use a significant issue came up with the scanner and they went above and beyond to get it back up and running. Was so impressed (and I realized how dependent we've become on a scanner) that I purchased another one.Needed some assistance submitting a Valplast RPD design digitally this week. Damien worked me through it in literally 5 minutes and took the time to optimize my graphics card performance while he was there. Top shelf service.Certainly, the first place I go with any dental tech purchase.read less - 6/04/2022
Cole Smith
These guys are great. My favorite part about them is they set you up for success with your products. A lot of dental companies will be happy to sell you big ticket tech item but don't have much to set you up for success. I bought the Medit i500 and t...read moreThese guys are great. My favorite part about them is they set you up for success with your products. A lot of dental companies will be happy to sell you big ticket tech item but don't have much to set you up for success. I bought the Medit i500 and they have tons of videos on how to get it working and working well for you in your office. If you need a much of hand holding they have that our if you are like me and like the do it yourself videos they have that. I am sure you can buy these products all over but it is there service that sets them apart. If to are looking to buy some dental tech use these guys!read less - 6/05/2020
Christopher Godla
I have had my Medit i700 scanner for about 2 months now and have completed 67 restorative cases with it. Scans have generally been pretty quick, and the accuracy seems to be superior to the iTero I used. My first scanner ended up dying after a few ...read moreI have had my Medit i700 scanner for about 2 months now and have completed 67 restorative cases with it. Scans have generally been pretty quick, and the accuracy seems to be superior to the iTero I used. My first scanner ended up dying after a few weeks. Medit and cad-ray were great- they sent a new scanner within the week and haven't had any problems since. Customer service has been spot on. Overall I have been very satisfied.read less - 6/30/2021
I have owned this scanner for six months now. I have experience with other scanners including Trios and Carestream. The Medit scanner can stand with the big names. The scanned images are good. The ease of communication through the software with the l...read moreI have owned this scanner for six months now. I have experience with other scanners including Trios and Carestream. The Medit scanner can stand with the big names. The scanned images are good. The ease of communication through the software with the lab is probably my favorite part. Another thing I like is that the company is very open to improvements and listens to what its customers are wanting.
Cad Ray has a great team working alongside this product and continually updates all of the users on new features or new ways to use existing features. They are extremely responsive to questions and provide fast and competent support to the product that they sell.
I would recommend both the scanner and the company to anyone looking to get into the digital scanning world.read less - 10/09/2019
Six Stars! On a scale of one to five, I give CAD-Ray six stars. They really are that good. If you are purchasing an intra-oral scanner, I would recommend buying the Medit I-700. It is a dream machine. But, if you want incredible service every time, y...read moreSix Stars! On a scale of one to five, I give CAD-Ray six stars. They really are that good. If you are purchasing an intra-oral scanner, I would recommend buying the Medit I-700. It is a dream machine. But, if you want incredible service every time, you should buy your scanner from Cad-Ray. They have come through with flying colors each time I have contacted them. Their sales team great and their service is amazing. They have volumes of educational videos available, as well. I have worked with Jonathan, Damien, Frank, Armen and Laura. In a time where we are seeing the opposite, CAD-Ray will totally blow you away with the entire experience. I totally appreciate them and their value.read less - 11/01/2021
Thomas Lim
Just updating my post to show my cart setup. Hope it can help for someone :) - 10/12/2019
They all go absolutely above and beyond in all aspects. Whether it's tech support, products, CE, everything. Everyone I have dealt with has been wonderful. Love these guys! - 6/19/2020
Kip Covington
Customer support! I've had handfuls of scanners over the years and support has always been the biggest variable. We recently had a scanner bought through and implant company and received limited to no support. Through recommendations from several fri...read moreCustomer support! I've had handfuls of scanners over the years and support has always been the biggest variable. We recently had a scanner bought through and implant company and received limited to no support. Through recommendations from several friends, I purchased a second scanner through cad-ray and had them transfer over our support for the first. I wish I would have done this years ago. Destaney, has been incredible helping us troubleshoot a hardware issue that came up. It was on 3-shapes side but not only did she run it up the ladder there and get us back up and running quickly, but she promptly answered all questions and continuously checked in to make sure things were moving along. I won't purchase from anyone else going forward.read less - 8/14/2024
Thuy Nguyen
CAD-Ray is amazing! Prompt replies, quick delivery, knowledgeable team! I had some cracks on my scanner that I read on their FB group may be a manufacturer's defect. My scanner was still covered under warranty. They overnighted a brand new one to me ...read moreCAD-Ray is amazing! Prompt replies, quick delivery, knowledgeable team! I had some cracks on my scanner that I read on their FB group may be a manufacturer's defect. My scanner was still covered under warranty. They overnighted a brand new one to me before I even knew they were going to replace it! That's how quick they are! Highly recommend them!!!read less - 12/23/2021
Mark Evans
I’d like to tell you a story about CAD-Ray.com.I ordered a VHF N4+ from CadRay. About two weeks after the order was placed, they called me up and said, “VHF just got an exclusive with “The Big Boys” so they are cutting ties with all the little indepe...read moreI’d like to tell you a story about CAD-Ray.com.I ordered a VHF N4+ from CadRay. About two weeks after the order was placed, they called me up and said, “VHF just got an exclusive with “The Big Boys” so they are cutting ties with all the little independent distributors. They just called us, and we just found out. What this means is that we won’t be able to provide you service after purchasing the VHF mill that you just bought.”Now, they could have just left it at that. They could have said, “Sorry, it’s out of our hands.” They could have said, “We appreciate your business, but it’s not our fault.” They could have said, “That’s the way the cookie crumbles.”But they didn’t.Frank Weinstein calls me up and tells me that they want to make this right, so they are going to hook me up with a brand new Imes Coritec One+ for the same price as the VHF. The Coritec One+ is like the Mercedes of mills for in-office. This is the new model that just barely came out. It is a 5 axis mill. It does wet and dry milling. It does blocks and pucks. It mills all materials know to man, including Vibranium. It can also fly the space shuttle, and make all your wishes and dreams come true. It’s that good. It came with the laptop, Exocad, all the tools, and all the bells and whistles. It came fully loaded. It came white glove delivered to my office. It came with in office training. It came with the extra bur package. It came with everything and the kitchen sink.So, I paid 36k for a mill, and because of something that was not Cad-Rays fault, they ended up giving me a 60k mill for the same price.In the words of the great Tony Stark: “That’s how Dad did it. That’s how Cad-Ray does it. And it’s worked out pretty well so far.”Thank you Frank Weinstein and Armen Mirzayan for having outstanding customer service and going the extra mile every time.read less - 4/09/2021
Tommy Han
Awesome service. Bought a Medit and was able to learn how to use it simply by watching Cad-Ray's support and education videos. Three thumbs up! - 6/16/2020
David Paquette
Cad-Ray has been super-efficient and very easy to work with! Highly recommend them for Medit sales and support! - 11/09/2021
I purchased the Medit700 a couple of months ago. I have the Cerec Primescan and what a difference!!! The Medit is easy to use and efficient!!! They have a great support system> Laura Geney is amazing. She is almost like being on call anytime I have a...read moreI purchased the Medit700 a couple of months ago. I have the Cerec Primescan and what a difference!!! The Medit is easy to use and efficient!!! They have a great support system> Laura Geney is amazing. She is almost like being on call anytime I have a question. If she is not available (which was only once) the person that helped me logged in and took care of my problem!! I highly recommend this scanner!!!read less - 12/30/2021
Yaqi Mu
I absolutely love using the Medit i500 Intra-oral scanner!!! The i500 scanner is small and easy to use on all patients. It is fast and gives a very clear image. I also think its very cool that you can change the music setting to whatever song you m...read moreI absolutely love using the Medit i500 Intra-oral scanner!!! The i500 scanner is small and easy to use on all patients. It is fast and gives a very clear image. I also think its very cool that you can change the music setting to whatever song you may like! I have used a few different scanners since i have been a dental assistant and have had several complications as far as: how long the scanner would take to load the image, The scanner not catching the image and even the system constantly kicking me out. With the i500 intra-oral scanner i have the BEST experience. I am happy and my patients are happier! I recommend the Medit i500 Intra-oral scanner to anyone who has never used it before! You wont be disappointed! 5 Stars for sure!!!!
- Samantha Brown @ Southern Oak Dental in Conway SC.read less - 6/17/2020
This company is excellent. Their knowledge, support, and sincerity is unmatched.Thank you, Frank, Damien, and Jonathan. You guys rock! - 5/08/2025
Milton Ruiz
Best customer service I have ever experienced from any company I have worked with! They alway answer the phone and are ready to help with whatever question you may have. Love that I do not have to press 500 buttons to get to a live person. Bought my...read moreBest customer service I have ever experienced from any company I have worked with! They alway answer the phone and are ready to help with whatever question you may have. Love that I do not have to press 500 buttons to get to a live person. Bought my Medit from them and could not be happier with decision!read less - 12/20/2022
STAR DENTAL CLINIC
This has changed my way of doing things forever. I can’t live without my Medit scanner. I promote it to all my friends like crazy. Support with Cad ray is awesome. They return calls within seconds. The price for scanner is ridiculously good and the ...read moreThis has changed my way of doing things forever. I can’t live without my Medit scanner. I promote it to all my friends like crazy. Support with Cad ray is awesome. They return calls within seconds. The price for scanner is ridiculously good and the quality of images is amazing. Their website has soo many educational videos. It doesn’t end. I love the ability to mobilize it from one off to another until I buy a second one. I’m can’t wait u til I have the time to learn all the other cool technology cad ray has. It’s amazing.read less - 7/24/2020
Richard Wu
Great customer service! Had an issue with our dongle and Cad-Ray got it squared away and a new dongle sent right away. - 1/25/2023
Arielle Forbes
Just got my Medit IOS delivered last week and the service from Jon was great! I had a ton of questions before placing the order and he happily answered. This is the type of customer support many dental suppliers are missing. Great company to work wit...read moreJust got my Medit IOS delivered last week and the service from Jon was great! I had a ton of questions before placing the order and he happily answered. This is the type of customer support many dental suppliers are missing. Great company to work with.read less - 6/19/2020
Aaron Gelfand
Worked with Laura and she is incredibly knowledgeable. She gave me all the right advice and steered me in the right direction. Her ongoing support is as good as it gets. I feel like I have a 24 hour team at my beckoning call. For the meat and pot...read moreWorked with Laura and she is incredibly knowledgeable. She gave me all the right advice and steered me in the right direction. Her ongoing support is as good as it gets. I feel like I have a 24 hour team at my beckoning call. For the meat and potatoes. I got an Icam 4D from her and now I am printing all on 4 arches same day surgery at our practice in Denver(NUSET). We are going to put ICams and Trios’ in all our offices thanks to Laura and the Cad-Ray team. If you have any questions about the workflow and the success we are having with the Digital work flow call Laura and I will help you succeed with her product support.Thank you Laura and Cad-Ray!read less - 4/28/2022
Aaron LaRock
Dentist here. Bought a scanner, mill and 3d printer with Cad-Ray. I don't know what I'd do if I bought these items without their support. They've helped me so much and are awesome. I felt I had to repay by writing them this nice review. You won't reg...read moreDentist here. Bought a scanner, mill and 3d printer with Cad-Ray. I don't know what I'd do if I bought these items without their support. They've helped me so much and are awesome. I felt I had to repay by writing them this nice review. You won't regret getting whatever you need through Cad Ray.read less - 3/15/2024
Steven Hechtman
As important as the decision of which scanner to buy (I bought the Medit i500 - why is a separate review) is the decision of who to purchase it from. There is a Medit i500 distributor 5 miles from my office who agreed to lower their price to match C...read moreAs important as the decision of which scanner to buy (I bought the Medit i500 - why is a separate review) is the decision of who to purchase it from. There is a Medit i500 distributor 5 miles from my office who agreed to lower their price to match Cad-Ray. So why did I purchase it from Cad-Ray who is 2000 miles away from my office. Because I did my homework. Because the post purchase training and support offered by Cad-Ray was unmatched by any other dealer I spoke with. Their library of online training videos that came with the purchase is without equal. Bottom Line: I’m glad I purchased the Medit i500 and, with hindsight, I know I made the right choice to purchased it from Cad-Ray!read less - 5/12/2020
Suzanne Stock
Excellent experience, customer service has been stupendous! - 11/20/2023
Evan Sachs
Great staff and support when needed! There is a bit of a learning curve like with any new tech, but I highly recommend the Medit i500 and the Cad-Ray staff is great. Special thanks to Laura and Jeff for helping out! You guys rock. Great company and ...read moreGreat staff and support when needed! There is a bit of a learning curve like with any new tech, but I highly recommend the Medit i500 and the Cad-Ray staff is great. Special thanks to Laura and Jeff for helping out! You guys rock. Great company and product!read less - 11/11/2020
Lisa Greenstein
Exceptional customer service - 7/26/2023
Angelique Freking
I recently purchased the Medit i500 and am in love. I've used all the other scanners in my career, but this is my favorite hands down. I had a very easy, great purchasing experience and would happily refer anyone to this company and this particular s...read moreI recently purchased the Medit i500 and am in love. I've used all the other scanners in my career, but this is my favorite hands down. I had a very easy, great purchasing experience and would happily refer anyone to this company and this particular scanner.read less - 6/19/2020
Dwayne Bodie
Very happy with my Sprint Ray 3D printer. Frank D. went above and beyond with training my team on how to use it. He offered remote training as a courtesy and followed up to make sure we were ok. Highly recommend! - 1/25/2023
Jason Oh
Everyone at CAD Ray has been amazing. Glad I chose them for my Medit and Sprint Ray purchase. Our training with Kaila was awesome. Thank you - 1/04/2023
All Clear
Great experience with CAD-Ray, specifically Damien, with purchasing and customer service with servicing a scanner that needed replacing under warranty. All around excellent service and I will definitely come back for future technology we'll eventuall...read moreGreat experience with CAD-Ray, specifically Damien, with purchasing and customer service with servicing a scanner that needed replacing under warranty. All around excellent service and I will definitely come back for future technology we'll eventually be adding to our practice.read less - 10/23/2024
Archstone Weatherford
Medit i700 intraoral scanner is the first scanner that I actually used on my patients. Before I put my hands on it, I had some prejudices against all scanners. They were bulky, laggy in capturing the images, etc. When I finally had the chance to use ...read moreMedit i700 intraoral scanner is the first scanner that I actually used on my patients. Before I put my hands on it, I had some prejudices against all scanners. They were bulky, laggy in capturing the images, etc. When I finally had the chance to use an intraoral scanner and get introductory training with Laura from CAD-RAY a few weeks ago, I totally changed my view of this product. Very soon, I was able to scan crown, bridge, and even denture cases. Of course, I have had some knowledge about the digital scanner from CEs provided in the past, but being able to apply it in the daily practice in such a short time was beyond my expectations. I would highly recommend MEDIT i700 and training from CAD-RAY.
Big thanks to Laura!
-Lei Fu, D.D.S.read less - 9/12/2021
I always have enjoyed working with Cad-ray. Customer service is always on-point! - 5/25/2022
Jonathan Van Dyke
Cadray is excellent and their medit scanner is amazing! - 6/16/2020
Iggy “Iggy” Deleon
There’s a reason why all cardray reviews are 5 stars only. They have the best people on their team. Jesse is the best trainer and provides above and beyond support. I can’t count the number of times that he’s saved me in the clinic with his designs. ...read moreThere’s a reason why all cardray reviews are 5 stars only. They have the best people on their team. Jesse is the best trainer and provides above and beyond support. I can’t count the number of times that he’s saved me in the clinic with his designs. He’s truly a master at his craft and one of the best assets to the cad ray team!read less - 2/02/2023
dr sheth
It was very powerful and enlightening experience today to do 2 day sessions with Dr. Armen and Damien. I learned a lot, quite amazed by how much we can do with knowledge and Medit scanner. As usual great support by CAD-RAY always. I absolutely love M...read moreIt was very powerful and enlightening experience today to do 2 day sessions with Dr. Armen and Damien. I learned a lot, quite amazed by how much we can do with knowledge and Medit scanner. As usual great support by CAD-RAY always. I absolutely love Medit scanner.read less - 8/08/2021
Nancy Hartrick
I am absolutely in love with my MEDIT i700, as is my entire staff. The Medit i700 is reliable, fast, easy to use and the software is incredibly intuitive. I couldn't be happier with the team at CAD-Ray. They are true professionals, and very hands and...read moreI am absolutely in love with my MEDIT i700, as is my entire staff. The Medit i700 is reliable, fast, easy to use and the software is incredibly intuitive. I couldn't be happier with the team at CAD-Ray. They are true professionals, and very hands and responsive in terms of their support and training. Thank you to the entire team.read less - 8/24/2021
Frank DeLuca was very helpful even though i didn't buy Medit from Cad ray ! Had an issue and my original dealer was not helpful and i contacted Cad ray thinking it was direct Medit. Frank was extremely nice to log in and do what ever he could until ...read moreFrank DeLuca was very helpful even though i didn't buy Medit from Cad ray ! Had an issue and my original dealer was not helpful and i contacted Cad ray thinking it was direct Medit. Frank was extremely nice to log in and do what ever he could until Medit could take over. would give 7 stars if available.read less - 8/10/2022
ryan ku
I've been using this for almost 2 months now and I just love it. At this price point, ROI is a no-brainer. The convenience factor is amazing. I only did the DIY online training and I'm pretty confident doing the scan. I've signed up for the actual ...read moreI've been using this for almost 2 months now and I just love it. At this price point, ROI is a no-brainer. The convenience factor is amazing. I only did the DIY online training and I'm pretty confident doing the scan. I've signed up for the actual course so looking forward to seeing it's greater potentials.read less - 10/14/2019
I am a very happy customer, the team behind cad ray, is amazing. Ive had small issues, and tech support is always available. I always call for them to help me use new apps, or updates and they stay on the phone with me all thru out, until fixing the ...read moreI am a very happy customer, the team behind cad ray, is amazing. Ive had small issues, and tech support is always available. I always call for them to help me use new apps, or updates and they stay on the phone with me all thru out, until fixing the issue. Andy has helped me several times, and he's a really nice guy too, great attitude, doesn't make me feel dumb when I don't understand. Sometimes it feels like he's part of my office team! Thank you Cad Ray, thank you Andy!read less - 2/01/2023
Alex Vo
Great service and scanner support! Company delivers well above my expectations! Love my medit scanner. - 1/29/2023
Harrison MacKenzie
Purchased Medit i700 from Frank/CAD-Ray and everything has been absolutely top-notch! Great service, quick responses, great training. Very happy with CAD-Ray and our i700! - 10/20/2022
Jonathan Mason
I bought a Medit 3 years ago and have had amazing success with both the scanner and the support from Cad-Ray. My scanner recently broke and They were on the phone with my assistant trying to fix the problem, and when it was unfixable, they overnight...read moreI bought a Medit 3 years ago and have had amazing success with both the scanner and the support from Cad-Ray. My scanner recently broke and They were on the phone with my assistant trying to fix the problem, and when it was unfixable, they overnighted a new scanner and helped us set it up. Medit is now available through many dealers, but I would only buy next one from Cad-Ray.read less - 11/03/2022